Just cracked my 24" Pure Metal Ride. Gutted.

Joined: 01 Jul 2009 Posts: 576 Location: South Australia

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Still, I pointed out that Bosphorus and Istanbul use scrap raw materials (scrap copper and tin), and melt them in a tiny, ancient furnace, without any sort of high-precision measuring equipment. This hardly amounts to a high grade of bronze produced, I believe.

Thats not such a bad thing since only a relatively small amount is melted in a pot being cast at a time, you can imagine the quality control in that compared to say half a tonne at a time and a 50 meter line up of cast moulds.

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I will say again that Mike Skiba stated several times that he liked to use Sabian B8 cymbals as "blanks" because there is very little actual hammering and lathing done, so they're very easy to re-work into something different. He never mentioned any difference in quality of the material though.

He uses them because of their bang for the buck and to experiment on as explained in this thread, also on his site and in the post he states he uses b20 casts now and moved away from the sheetmetal.
http://www.cymbalholic.com/forums/showthread.php?20487-First-impressions-of-my-new-Skiba-%28reworked-Paiste-prototype%29/page2
Thats not to say you cant rework a cheaper cymbal and get good results, i would think there would have to be a limit though. He mentions paiste as being the masters of the b8 alloys. I would like to know the difference with alloy and sources of a company that specialise in that field compared to a company that makes low end cymbal out the same material, factoring in that b8 etc have to be made for cymbal companies as most tin bronze is made for industrial application of a different tin level.

Joined: 31 Oct 2005 Posts: 1319

Sambodrums wrote:

Thats not such a bad thing since only a relatively small amount is melted in a pot being cast at a time, you can imagine the quality control in that compared to say half a tonne at a time and a 50 meter line up of cast moulds.

That would be true, if all measurements weren't done "by eye", until "about right". I mean, their (and old K Zildjian) "B20" bronze contains anything from 18% to 22% tin.
All in all, I don't think their manufacturing process can produce high grade bronze.

And I know that Johan's experience was that Turkish and Chinese cymbals were much more brittle than their North American counterparts (Skiba's too probably, haven't checked for that particular bit).

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He uses them because of their bang for the buck and to experiment on as explained in this thread, also on his site and in the post he states he uses b20 casts now and moved away from the sheetmetal.
http://www.cymbalholic.com/forums/showthread.php?20487-First-impressions-of-my-new-Skiba-%28reworked-Paiste-prototype%29/page2
Thats not to say you cant rework a cheaper cymbal and get good results, i would think there would have to be a limit though. He mentions paiste as being the masters of the b8 alloys.

From what I can see, he simply prefers B20 to B8 in general. I haven't seen any comparison of entry level vs. top level B8 cymbals as far as bronze quality goes. Anyway...

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I would like to know the difference with alloy and sources of a company that specialise in that field compared to a company that makes low end cymbal out the same material, factoring in that b8 etc have to be made for cymbal companies as most tin bronze is made for industrial application of a different tin level.

... without this type of information, nothing we say can be more than mere speculation. That being said, I still think ZBT's could be vastly improved by proper hammering and lathing, if only Zildjian wanted them to sound any better.

So, do we have a conclusion?
I think there's at least one useful bit of information in all this word salad:
Meinl frowns upon crashing of their rides; still, they will replace an abused crash even if it broke just weeks after purchase

Joined: 01 Jul 2009 Posts: 576 Location: South Australia

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That would be true, if all measurements weren't done "by eye", until "about right". I mean, their (and old K Zildjian) "B20" bronze contains anything from 18% to 22% tin.
All in all, I don't think their manufacturing process can produce high grade bronze.

And I know that Johan's experience was that Turkish and Chinese cymbals were much more brittle than their North American counterparts (Skiba's too probably, haven't checked for that particular bit).

A quote from Mike Skiba

"B20 Bronze is typically cast in single ingots, each to become an individual cymbal. Most other alloys are rolled into large sheets from which large numbers of essentially the same instrument will be produced. This mass production works well for the companies (Paiste, Sabian, Zildjian, collectively known as the "BIG 3") wishing to make money by emphasizing quantity over quality, while the single ingot casting process is the best for making cymbals of the highest quality. I do not wish to debate the politics of the cymbal industry here.it is enough to say there are reasons for different alloys.

The metal is "cooked" by mixing the constituent elements (Copper, Tin, Silver) together at the required temperatures and times. There is a myriad of detailed foundry procedures that must be followed perfectly for each batch of alloy, much like baking cookies.the recipe must be followed consistently each time, and the oven temperature, cook time, etc. must be duplicated exactly to produce batches that have the same characteristics repeatedly. I won't get into the secret recipes simply because I don't have that information, and would not divulge it if I did have it. This is where the proprietary makers herald the foundation of their "unique" sound.they claim it comes from the closely guarded recipe of past generations.

Over the years I've shared communications with more than one cymbal enthusiast who has had samples of B20 analyzed to see what it was made of. The metallurgical laboratory results were not surprising to me at all they ran a wide range of Tin percentage, from 9% to 27%. Some had no traces of Silver discernible at all. These samples were taken from cuttings of many manufacturers, both North American and Turkish in origin. For each individual "BIG 3" maker there was also a range of at least 5%, greater for those of Turkish origin. By no means the most scientific of all studies, but nevertheless indicative of the variation of a very simple alloy, and a clear demonstration of the fact that the CONTROL that is so essential in the making of high quality instruments can be found lacking from the very first steps of manufacture."

The quote backs both our opinions at times, i imagine some but not all of the tin variation has to do with different makers and apparent recipe's all advertised under b20. Cast iron Melting pots and scales are used in a 4 to 1 weight ratio, you cant weigh with your eye's and you cant get to withing 2% or even 4% between batches by eye alone and all these years of making cymbals and no one has come up with a system..i dont think so.... Variation between same cymbals of 2 to 4% is still present in sheet as the Paiste patent has a "preferred" tin range of 14 to 16%. It doesn't prove not being able to achieve purity within the copper and tin for a good cymbal. In Mikes opinion or experience single castings methods as being "best for making cymbals of the highest quality" http://www.cymbalholic.com/forums/showthread.php?21312-02-Methods-and-Procedures-for-Making-Cymbals

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From what I can see, he simply prefers B20 to B8 in general. I haven't seen any comparison of entry level vs. top level B8 cymbals as far as bronze quality goes. Anyway... without this type of information, nothing we say can be more than mere speculation

Seeing as he describes Paiste as having the fines B8 alloy in the cymbal world....maybe its more than just mere speculation from his experience. Same B8 alloy but different levels of alloy quality at for cymbal levels and cost, same with b20 casts. He also repeats about quality of metal processing to achieve a good cast or blank

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So, do we have a conclusion?
I think there's at least one useful bit of information in all this word salad:
Meinl frowns upon crashing of their rides; still, they will replace an abused crash even if it broke just weeks after purchase

Im sure cracking 3 or 4 cymbals in a matter of weeks is improper playing which isn't covered under warranty so id say Meinl were duped

Also might i add that the MB20 crash lasted the kid 3 weeks and compared the Byzance ride cymbal a measly 1! Clearly in this highly controlled experiment the ride as showed far less crashing ability

Joined: 31 Oct 2005 Posts: 1319

Sambodrums wrote:

A quote from Mike Skiba

<snipped quote for brevity>

The quote backs both our opinions at times, i imagine some but not all of the tin variation has to do with different makers and apparent recipe's all advertised under b20.

The conclusion seems to be that quality control of materials is not always of the highest level even for the highest level cymbals.

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Cast iron Melting pots and scales are used in a 4 to 1 weight ratio, you cant weigh with your eye's and you cant get to withing 2% or even 4% between batches by eye alone and all these years of making cymbals and no one has come up with a system..i dont think so....

Don't take me so literally; I said "by eye", note quotation marks Wink

Of course there has to be some sort of measuring equipement.

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Variation between same cymbals of 2 to 4% is still present in sheet as the Paiste patent has a "preferred" tin range of 14 to 16%. It doesn't prove not being able to achieve purity within the copper and tin for a good cymbal. In Mikes opinion or experience single castings methods as being "best for making cymbals of the highest quality" http://www.cymbalholic.com/forums/showthread.php?21312-02-Methods-and-Procedures-for-Making-Cymbals

As already noted, we don't actually know the sources of materials for the big manufacturers.

Of course it's best to be able to make a cymbal from an individual casting, with full control over all the steps in the process. I don't see how that's relevant to this discussion though Smile

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Seeing as he describes Paiste as having the fines B8 alloy in the cymbal world....maybe its more than just mere speculation from his experience. Same B8 alloy but different levels of alloy quality at for cymbal levels and cost, same with b20 casts. He also repeats about quality of metal processing to achieve a good cast or blank

Maybe it is, maybe it's not, we don't know. Should we ask?
B20 still shows that sub par alloy quality control can produce top quality instruments (quote from Mike Skiba):

"At any rate, to my ear it is not so much the casting/rolling process that produces that signature "made in China" sound, but the alloy itself. China does not typically deal with the purest of metals, and it is my conclusion that the recipe they use is considerably tainted by foreign substances, at least in comparison to the squeaky clean B20 of the BIG 3. I'll bet they melt down old used automobile radiators, telephone wire, you name it, etc. as the bulk of their "copper" and so forth...I've seen older Wuhan cymbals that are as silver in color as NS12 (NickelSilver) which originated in Asia under the name Packfong.

Control in China...?

No, not really.

That is the beauty of some of their instruments!"

So even if ZBT's are made from lower grade bronze, they shouldn't necessarily sound worse for it.

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Also might i add that the MB20 crash lasted the kid 3 weeks and compared the Byzance ride cymbal a measly 1! Clearly in this highly controlled experiment the ride as showed far less crashing ability

How long would a Byzance crash last him? Can't really compare Mb20 and Byzance Wink

Joined: 01 Jul 2009 Posts: 576 Location: South Australia

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maybe it is, maybe it's not, we don't know. Should we ask?

worth a shot, i can just about bet my left nut on zildjian not paying for zbt alloy, the same what paiste for a 2002. Why would they, top quality bronze for a shit cymbal, all they would be doing is loosing profit margin.

"At any rate, to my ear it is not so much the casting/rolling process that produces that signature "made in China" sound, but the alloy itself"

Does that not reaffirm what i said from the start...the alloy itself,

"I'll bet they melt down old used automobile radiators, telephone wire, you name it, etc. as the bulk of their "copper" and so forth...I've seen older Wuhan cymbals that are as silver in color as NS12 (NickelSilver) which originated in Asia under the name Packfong."

Yep, just look at the low and mid range stuff coming out off china b8 and 20, on the other hand the same could be said for some but not all Turk cymbals as far as materials go, a lot use copper ingots not scrap, so why are a lot of their cymbals of a much higher standard, and held in high esteem as a base material...Has to involve systems of refinement to get a decent alloy but not excluding craftsmanship if its the "alloy itself". Taking into consideration Mike has also switched to Turkish blanks like other independent cymbal makers who make "finely hand crafted yadda yadda" cymbals. Are guys like mike going to pick a shit bronze when they're so intent on trying to make the best product possible or be "on par with the rest of the world"? The same would apply for B8 alloys as well.

I think you get what you pay for...

I looked at my 18 mb20 and 18 byzance a few days ago, mb20 has a consistent but fairly shallow curvature as where the Byzance has a higher and flatter start to its curvature off the bell but more steeply curves away down towards the edge with a larger overall profile. 200grams difference and both just slightly taper to the edge.

Joined: 31 Oct 2005 Posts: 1319

Sambodrums wrote:

worth a shot, i can just about bet my left nut on zildjian not paying for zbt alloy, the same what paiste for a 2002. Why would they, top quality bronze for a shit cymbal, all they would be doing is loosing profit margin.

But will they admit it?

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Does that not reaffirm what i said from the start...the alloy itself,
...

Yep, just look at the low and mid range stuff coming out off china b8 and 20, on the other hand the same could be said for some but not all Turk cymbals as far as materials go, a lot use copper ingots not scrap, so why are a lot of their cymbals of a much higher standard, and held in high esteem as a base material...Has to involve systems of refinement to get a decent alloy but not excluding craftsmanship if its the "alloy itself". Taking into consideration Mike has also switched to Turkish blanks like other independent cymbal makers who make "finely hand crafted yadda yadda" cymbals. Are guys like mike going to pick a shit bronze when they're so intent on trying to make the best product possible or be "on par with the rest of the world"? The same would apply for B8 alloys as well.

First off, there is no B8 cymbals from China as far as I know. Not that it makes any difference in this discussion Wink

The difference between China's low grade alloy cymbals, and Western low-grade alloy cymbals is that cymbals from China are made to sound as good as they can. This is why there is a few people who prefer cymbals from Wuhan to top of the line cymbals from the Big Three. Yes, you can make even sounding cymbals from higher grade metals, but poor quality of alloy doesn't equal poor quality of sound, at least in the case of the cymbals from China.

Unlike the Chinese, entry level cymbals from Sabildjian sound consistently like crap

You can't blame that on alloy alone.

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I think you get what you pay for...

You get a lot more for the same price from China than from the Big Three (or Four; Meinl should finally get their rightful place among them in my opinion).

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I looked at my 18 mb20 and 18 byzance a few days ago, mb20 has a consistent but fairly shallow curvature as where the Byzance has a higher and flatter start to its curvature off the bell but more steeply curves away down towards the edge with a larger overall profile. 200grams difference and both just slightly taper to the edge.

Does the Byzance also sound a bit trashier, with a shorter decay?

As far as I understand, it should be somewhat similar to comparing an A Zildjian with a K Zildjian, or AA with Hand Hammered Sabian. You wouldn't expect them to hold up the same under abuse.

Joined: 01 Jul 2009 Posts: 576 Location: South Australia

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But will they admit it?

No, i don't think so, but some like Mike might be in the know..

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The difference between China's low grade alloy cymbals, and Western low-grade alloy cymbals is that cymbals from China are made to sound as good as they can. This is why there is a few people who prefer cymbals from Wuhan to top of the line cymbals from the Big Three. Yes, you can make even sounding cymbals from higher grade metals, but poor quality of alloy doesn't equal poor quality of sound, at least in the case of the cymbals from China.

Thats ok when comparing low range cymbals, looking at budget to pro cymbals and its a different story. Ok a crap alloy is better with a little more time spent on it but as we have found there is a distinct difference to that of higher quality alloys and higher level cymbals of both mass and independently manufacture, at least in B20.

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Unlike the Chinese, entry level cymbals from Sabildjian sound consistently like crap Laughing You can't blame that on alloy alone.
You get a lot more for the same price from China than from the Big Three (or Four; Meinl should finally get their rightful place among them in my opinion).

At least they're consistent

actually meinl classics and some of the paiste lower b8 lines are not that far off in price and sound a lot better than cheaper "Sabildjian's", I buy meinl's through the US, including postage they're at half the cost of buying them out here. Its not very patriotic of me but economically i'm far better off buying the pro cymbals at almost AUS mid range prices.

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or AA with Hand Hammered Sabian

Yeah somewhat, the traditionals are a bit drier sounding as where the brilliants are nice and bright, not glassy but still really clear and crisp, open up really easily. Very versatile, all their cymbals sound much better in person/studio/gig than the clips on the website.

Joined: 31 Oct 2005 Posts: 1319

Sambodrums wrote:

No, i don't think so, but some like Mike might be in the know..

I doubt he knows more than what he wrote about great inconsistency in proportions of tin and copper.
Someone on Cymbalholic posted their impressions from a factory that makes B8 and Signature blanks for Paiste. According to them, B8 blanks from the factory are also used by other big manufacturers that were left unnamed.

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Thats ok when comparing low range cymbals, looking at budget to pro cymbals and its a different story. Ok a crap alloy is better with a little more time spent on it but as we have found there is a distinct difference to that of higher quality alloys and higher level cymbals of both mass and independently manufacture, at least in B20.

It all boils down to the fact that ZBT's don't sound bad because of the alloy alone. They are made to sound worse than their potential.

Joined: 01 Jul 2009 Posts: 576 Location: South Australia

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Someone on Cymbalholic posted their impressions from a factory that makes B8 and Signature blanks for Paiste. According to them, B8 blanks from the factory are also used by other big manufacturers that were left unnamed.

According to factory tours Meinl get their own individual blanks made to what specifications they ask for, same goes with Paiste. Zildjian gets sheet alloy from a fabricator and arrives in spools. mmm nasty...

[url]www.mikedolbear.com/story.asp?StoryID=1215&Source=Search&txtSearch=Factory|tour[/url]

[url]www.mikedolbear.com/story.asp?StoryID=1034&Source=Search&txtSearch=Factory|tour[/url]

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It all boils down to the fact that ZBT's don't sound bad because of the alloy alone. They are made to sound worse than their potential.

Anything will sound bad when pressed and hammered for decoration

Given the same attention cymbals will sound worse from alloy alone as already addressed

Joined: 31 Oct 2005 Posts: 1319

Sambodrums wrote:

According to factory tours Meinl get their own individual blanks made to what specifications they ask for, same goes with Paiste. Zildjian gets sheet alloy from a fabricator and arrives in spools. mmm nasty...

[url]www.mikedolbear.com/story.asp?StoryID=1215&Source=Search&txtSearch=Factory|tour[/url]

[url]www.mikedolbear.com/story.asp?StoryID=1034&Source=Search&txtSearch=Factory|tour[/url]

Now that's some cool information. I wouldn't be surprised if B8 blanks for Meinl and Paiste came from one factory. On the other hand, I'd say it's very probable the bronze Zildjian use for their B8 cymbals is of lower grade.
I wonder what grade Sabian use for their APX series.

Joined: 01 Jul 2009 Posts: 576 Location: South Australia

Could be from the same factory, the articles suggest they are made to their own designs, fair bit of cash thrown at the Meinl plant though Shocked

I cant really find any info on Sabian b8 material, but if they're getting them as blanks you would think it would be better than spools...Being actually made to some kind of specification for the manufacturer for the specific purpose of becoming a cymbal...compared to an industrial sized roll of the shit.

Joined: 31 Oct 2005 Posts: 1319

It's funny though how Sabian bit themselves in the ass with all the negative sentiment they built up for B8 bronze cymbals, and then coming out with a semi-pro B8 line

Another funny thing from the Meinl factory tour, they actually never hammer their entry-level cymbals, but use molds with hammer marks on them Shocked

And, as far as I understand, there's no lathing involved either. Come to think of it, Zildjians ZBT do look like they come from a similar process, their lathing lines look kind of fake upon closer inspection. No wonder a lot of people consider Paiste entry-level cymbals to be the best for the money.